Believe it or not, GearScore is actually useful

[Guest]

On my server, there are usually ways people advertise for groups.

1. They ask to link relevant achievements before inviting.
2. They inspect you or bring up your armory before inviting.
3. They ask for a minimum GS before inviting.

In my experience over the last few months, raids formed by methods 1 and 2 have a pretty decent chance of success.

However, raids formed by method 3 fail miserably almost every single time. I've learned to completely ignore anyone who spams trade with, "LFM, PST GS for invite," and my PUG experience has vastly improved.

Once you learn how to use GS properly, it really is helpful!

[Super Enerla]

Then you only seen bad groups.

A good PUG leader checks gearscore (preferably without asking you) to decide if it is worth checking anything more.

Then check your statistics (number of boss kills on some bosses), specscore next.

Then they can check your stats if they look right and your talent specs.

And finally they might ask a question to check if you are experienced.

If you or your group has solid reputation, you have real good referal, etc. some (or most) of these checks can be avoided. If you /w GS in the begining the raid leader can decide before you would get into inspect range...

[Guest]

(02-28-2010 10:14 AM)Enerla Wrote:  Then you only seen bad groups.

That's exactly my point. Trade spam that mentions GearScore will result in a bad group the vast majority of the time, in my experience.

Quote:A good PUG leader checks gearscore (preferably without asking you) to decide if it is worth checking anything more.

Or might not even have GearScore installed.

Quote:Then check your statistics (number of boss kills on some bosses), specscore next.

Then they can check your stats if they look right and your talent specs.

And finally they might ask a question to check if you are experienced.

If you or your group has solid reputation, you have real good referal, etc. some (or most) of these checks can be avoided. If you /w GS in the begining the raid leader can decide before you would get into inspect range...

I guess I can see the value in using GS as a high-level filter before checking other stuff. Unfortunately, too many people use a quick GS mouseover as the only basis for invites. If PUG leaders are going to be lazy, checking achievements is a better (but not perfect) metric for determining a player's ability.

[Super Enerla]

(02-28-2010 03:02 PM)Guest Wrote:  I guess I can see the value in using GS as a high-level filter before checking other stuff. Unfortunately, too many people use a quick GS mouseover as the only basis for invites. If PUG leaders are going to be lazy, checking achievements is a better (but not perfect) metric for determining a player's ability.

This is where you are a bit wrong.

The topic at http://forum.enerla.net/mmo-corner/3896-link-epic.html essentially summarized what was wrong when people asked for achivements, both instance specific and Epic.

But there is another key difference: You can't get Ulduar achievement without doing ulduar first and if achievement is the requirement then all fresh alts are locked out of pugs by default, which is a bad thing.

Where Gearscore is different:

You can get good enough gearscore by doing random HCs for a few days, so alts do have a chance.
And it means you have enough tokens to buy most your spec specific armor set, which is somewhat reasonable gear.
And probably the time spent farming it meant you had time to learn how to use your abilities in case of problems. Even if you refused to learn from advice and mistakes, you still had good enough chances to learn.
And we know they haven't gave up when they had to farm a bit, so they might endure some trying, reading, etc too..

This information can be somewhat useful. People who refuse to work on their gear to make raid smooth often refuse to read up on class, spend time to learn their class, etc as well, and avoiding lazy people is a good thing.

You can see a strong reasoning there:
http://forum.enerla.net/blogs/theelf/156...score.html

You not only prepare for a raid (and farm gear) to make it easier, but because you respect the other raiders who worked on chars by putting similar amount of effort into the raid.

Loot dramas are hard to avoid.

I seen many such dramas.

But if you remove the "it would be much bigger upgrade for me, because I refused to get decent gear for the raid" card from the deck, things will be much better.

If drops will be only minor upgrade for everyone, and they don't want to risk their (and your) chances at getting more emblems over loot disputes...

If they know other members put good amount of work into their characters and into the raid, and they aren't grievers, ninjas, etc. that is so much better.

The moment when you add someone who says: You worked hard but he should get good upgrades easily without most of the work, and he might inform you how much bigger the upgrade is for him... Gear won't be the only issue you face because someone refused to gear his char.

Asking for achievement wouldn't lock out such lazy, arrogant morons, but would lock out well geared alts who respect others.

[Guest]

You may have some good points, but I find it interesting at how you arrive at your conclusions. In your links, you mention that someone with a high GS must have spent enough time playing to learn what he was doing, yet someone with a raid achievement could have been carried. This sentence of yours actually made me laugh out loud:

Enerla Wrote:Asking for achievement wouldn't lock out such lazy, arrogant morons, but would lock out well geared alts who respect others.

If you're going to assume the worst from the guy showing off his achievements, why do expect the best from the guy with a decent GS? I've seen people with good gear and the right spec do 2-3k less dps than they were supposed to. I've seen a well-geared priest unable to keep up players in H HoR. The funny thing is, when we did finish plowing through it (after three wipes), he got the H HoR achievement.

I can paraphrase a sentence from your own links:

Quote:So demanding epic achievement GearScore, and ignoring skill, experience, etc. is bad.

Your logic applies every bit as well to using GS as it does to using achievements. In fairness, we're both biased in the direction we prefer. You'll remember the people with achievements who played terribly and I'll remember the high GS people who were equally bad. Very few people are immune to confirmation bias.

The problem I see (again, I speak only from my experience) is that people are using only that quick mouseover number instead of actually looking as spec, gems, and enchants. Because of that, I am still having success by avoiding the PUGS with GS requirements.

[Super Enerla]

Guest: The difference is easy to spot.

Gearscore checks for current gear and this is a huge difference from epic. Also it speaks about gear levels that take reasonable time to farm.
A raid achievement can be a matter of a single boosting run.

I am sure that anyone who wants to join ICC10 with lower than 4400 gearscore is someone to be avoided. Why? Because he wants to raid without ever considering to run heroics to be equally geared and support the raid members that way. This decision alone is enough to say: he has no place on raids.

Currently suggested GS for starting ICC10 is around 4700, and you can achieve far more than 4400 just by doing 5 man content for a few days (less than a week) if you are willing to work for it. So this limit or even 4500 is more than reasonable as "absolute minimum" to consider you to be an acceptable candidate.

Anyone under this limit is out of question and anyone over this limit should be considered. So GS does a good job as first filter and the line you draw can be very fair and well defined at same time. AND also GS not only speaks about who passes this measurement, but can help you to set priorities where you can check people with better gearscore first...

Epic achievement is meaningless - and very similar to GS but with even more inaccuracies, no information about time spent to gear up, etc.

Raid achievement is missing from well geared alts - so locks out good player - but can be present after a boosting run - so even the people who refuse to gear for raids and support them can pass.

H HoR is a tricky instance for many, I actually like it, but I can understand how it is possible to wipe there with a weak pug. I seen PuGs (when the instance first came out) where we had a weak tank, DPS decided to vote kick him, we got a new tank, not stronger... Two top DPS left, we managed to clear the instance without any problems. Of course now most people understands the instance and it is made easier in patches, etc. But that shown me one thing: While the tank seemed weak (but I would give him more chances) he wasn't the issue, but DPS was. The DPS who looked good.

Having high DPS isn't enough if someone is on top of failbot chart. People who wins recount at marrowgar, or saurfang, but doesn't dps spikes / adds and make the attempt risky and bad aren't the best players.

When a lock consistently overagroes all tanks, and doesn't like the idea of watching threat meters? That isn't a low dps issue. People playing safe, doing their job according to tactics and keep their threat around 70% of tanks in instances and around 85-90% max in raids would have lower DPS but I would still prefer them.

Often people who refuse to put equal amount of work in raid and insist they can do better dps are the people who forget about tactics to justify their presence with dps chart and end up on top of failbot charts.

The "come prepared and be willing to work for your loot like everyone else, and respect fellow raid members by putting reasonable effort and being polite" requirement is important. Since it is a good foundation to build on. Gearscore is a good way to measure willingness to work for it.

Achievement requirement would only lock out well geared alts of good raiders.

[Guest]

Once again, your logic can be applied in the other direction:

A 4700 GS can be had by simply running heroics. A good healer can keep you alive through your mistakes in heroics and a good tank can get aggro back easily in a heroic. Bad players can be carried through heroics very easily and obtain a "decent" GS.

In a raid, if DPS makes mistakes like standing in fire or aggroing a boss, it can wipe the raid. There are gimmicks in raids that don't appear in heroics. For example, having to switch auras during the vortex phase on Twin Valkyrs. An inexperienced person with a high GearScore could easily die in that phase.

Achievement requirement would only lock out inexperienced players who only know how to run heroics.

[Super Enerla]

Alts (recently dinged 80 and geared) don't get achievement for free, so they wouldn't have achievement and would be locked out.

While some players lack experience, we all started with that, if they are willing to work to see raid content they paid for the game and paid for this content too, they should have a good chance to get the achievement and experience. If he is willing to work to make that raid and future raids smooth, letting a such player in is a good investment. If he has relevant addons, have read up on tactics, most encounters won't be a big problem.

Letting anyone who doesn't want to put effort and time in preparation won't learn much, won't improve much, won't want to contribute to raids must, and will stay as bad candidate. Since they are often CBA to do things right, they will stay as a problem.

[Guest]

Just to add my own two cents. Ultimately, you're not really going to know how somebody is until you see them perform. The player might have a subpar gs or may be lacking achievements, but the character may be an alt and the player may be exceptional. If a pug leader is looking to make some quick evaluations, they probably should consider looking at a combination of gs and achievements. I've seen some bad players with some surprising achievements and I've seen even more players that are terrible with a high gs.

[Super Enerla]

Guest: The key difference is: You say that a character with a low GS might be an alt and the player may be exceptional. This is where we don't agree, and we don't agree there for several reasonst.

First of all: I have 2 accounts, and have 2 paladins on my favorite realms (one on each account) both with very similar spec, I know that their limits are quite different. What playing style are supported by the gear they have is different. How to handle the same fight with them can be different.

People who spent time with a warlock won't understand the limits of a paladin healer just because he has a super warlock main. Experience on character is important. And for this reason I don't have any reason to believe in "it might be an alt" theories.

But that isn't the only key issue: While high GS doesn't mean we will see a good player. But if you see low GS, you know a few things. You know that the player in question haven't spent enough time to farm badges for good gear. This speaks about weak potential based on gear, and also speaks about lack of experience with character. Two good reasons to treat the player as a risky choice at best.

But there is one more thing you know for sure: He didn't spend the time with gearing but want you to deal with its effect. If he was CBA to endure some boring content for good chances, that speaks about personality.

If he is CBA to work to make raids go smooth, then you can't expect anything better when he would have to stay after wipes, wait while you replace others who might have to go for RL reasons, since if he would want the best for raids and would endure boring stuff to give you maximum chance of success, he would have farmed HCs for badge loot before... Which makes him a bad choice automatically.

The Heroic HoR example I made before shows: Even people who doesn't have potential from gear, skill or experience wise can make significant progress if they are willing to work for it. They can focus more, work better. People who want things without effort and want things for free, are bad with or without gear.

The key is: There are two kinds of such players.

People who have gear from somewhere and demand too strong gear from everyone since they want upgrades for free, and CBA to work for things. It is hard to detect them, except from their attitude towards people in weaker gear, their GS requirements, etc. Groups where GS requirement is far too high are bad for this reason. (Also they might gear for gearscore and have a low specscore) I dare to say this also means: The raid leader doesn't understand how gearscore works.

People who don't have gear yet, and doesn't want to farm HCs or work for things, and claim they are super players so you should carry them to raids, even if they are CBA to get a few badges to make things go smooth, since they don't care about other raiders they just want free loot without effort. They are the people who sign up with low gearscores and insist that you should take them to the raid without equal contribution, throw insults, speak against the addon.

And there are people who expect sane gearscore and willing to work for loot.